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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2018 10:07 am 
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Rocky Road
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Why am I so angry?

Because of this:
https://m.ign.com/articles/2018/12/10/s ... ial-poster

This, needless to say, is wrong.

Why has this happened? I shall attempt to extract the thought processes of the people who commited this horrendous sin against nature from the above article.

First to reiterate some of my feelings on the subject
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You know who had the same reaction as me? Naoto Ohshima, the man who drew Sonic.
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Now with that context in mind for this rant, consider the article.

"This telling of Sonic's story sees him as a bit of a fish -- or hedgehog -- out of water. Sonic, voiced by Ben Schwartz, finds himself in our present-day world..."
Let me stop them right there. I feel that this is the core of the problem. The idea of Sonic being from another world, some planet or dimension where there are talking animals but no humans, is one that goes back decades in his history- and I've always hated it. SatAM, Archie, Sonic X, all those hundreds of fanfics out there with the same premise of Sonic being from a different time or place than the present day world humans live in, it has ALWAYS gotten under my skin, for a host of reasons. The main issue I take with that concept, which I think is important to understanding what is going on with Tim Miller's movie, is this: it attempts to make Sonic less human, by making him more like an animal, after which it feels the need to explain why an animal can walk and talk like a human.

That is fundamentally wrong. Sonic is only an animal in the since that talking animals in fables are animals- which is to say not at all. In fables and fairy tales, animals can talk and walk and wear clothes and so on like humans, and it never needs explaining. If you try to explain it, it stops being fantasy. The games have never done that. In the games Sonic lives in a modern world alongside humans and other talking animals without explanation and without need for explanation.

Which is good storytelling! They don't need to waste precious time expositing on why humanoid blue hedgehogs exist or how people react to seeing one- as this ridiculous movie undoubtedly will to eat up run time with scenarios cribbed from the dozens of similar random-actor-meets-cgi-critter stories that have flooded theaters in recent years.

Naoto Ohshima in his tweet spells out that Sonic, like Mickey Mouse, is a fairy tale creature that isn't supposed to make sense in biological-anatomical terms. Sonic was inspired very much by the design of American cartoon characters like Mickey, and he runs on the same internal logic. Walt Disney often said that Mickey was "never really a mouse", that he appealed to audiences "because he’s so human; and that is the secret of his popularity." Carl Barks, the key developer of Donald Duck in the comics and the creator of Uncle $crooge, famously said "I've always looked upon the Ducks as caricature human beings. Perhaps I've been years writing in that middle world that J.R.R. Tolkien describes, and never knew it." The world Mickey and Donald live in is superlatively similar to our world: the same countries, the same languages, the same history. There's no backstory detailing how upright walking mice and ducks evolved from primitive mice and ducks in that universe, because they are not really animals. They're fables, like Mr. Toad or Peter Cottontail or the World Turtle.

This desire to make Sonic a realistic talking animal, in complete contradiction to the spirit of what a talking animal character is supposed to be, leads inevitably to this film's nightmarish reimagining of his body as some horrible fusion of a naked blue man with a hairy rodent.

"The production team behind the movie opted to go for a more realistic take on Sonic -- down to his updated new kicks -- than the more cartoony version we've seen in the past"
A realistic talking blue hedgehog that runs at the speed of light. Poof. Logic.

"The filmmakers consider Ted to be an appropriate analog for the upcoming Sonic movie’s integration of a CG character into a real-world setting."
An R rated movie about a sentient stuffed animal is what they're looking for in an adaptation of a children's video game. How could anyone on Earth be that breathtakingly stupid?

"The first thing you’ll likely notice about the character is that he has fur -- a bit of a no-brainer, considering what he is, but still a markedly different visual depiction of Sonic than what we’re used to. “That was always Stage 1 of adapting it to what the real world is and what a real animal would be like,” executive producer Tim Miller (director of Deadpool) said of giving Sonic fur. “It would be weird and it would feel like he was running around nude if he was some sort of otter-like thing. It was always, for us, fur, and we never considered anything different. It’s part of what integrates him into the real world and makes him a real creature.”"
I'll let Prof. Tolkien point out the logical error here:
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"Then there are the shoes. "We looked at every different variation of what shoes he's worn and we're trying to pay homage to that and also make it current and present day in what we think a Sonic of today would wear," "
Current? Present day? What are they blubbering about? How are his shoes more "current" with laces? What did they change about them to make them more modern? Are Michael Jackson's Bad kicks too archaic for our more sophisticated and discerning post-90s audiences? Never mind how damned ugly the shoes they went with instead look.

This is political cant. This is shit politicians say to sound like they know what they're doing. 'We're making progress. We're forward thinking. We're bringing it into the modern world. We're adapting with the times. We don't need those 90s sneakers. We have 80s looking sneakers. 80s is the new 90s.'

Seriously. Read that again. "A Sonic of today". Apparently all those games that came out in the past twenty years or so were all too behind the times. Sonic is this impossibly ancient thing that's so foreign to the culture 2018 people today will never appreciate or understand him without a cosmetic overhaul.

Imagine being a member of SEGA and reading this BS, being told the character you created in 1991 can no longer be considered 'a Sonic of today'.

Hell, I was born in 1994. Has the world left me behind? Do we need a new Ivo of Today to take my place in this brave new world?

These people are fucking lizard men. They have no grasp on reality whatsoever. They're literally regurgitating the same lines Marvel uses to justify shit like Hydra Cap and One More Day. This is the sort of thing a college says when it's getting rid of its liberal arts courses. This is the sort of thing a Pope says when he's rewriting the catechism. This is the sort of thing a filmmaker says about adapting a work of fiction that was written in the 19th century- except they're saying it about a character who was created in 1991.

"The most challenging part of Sonic’s updated design isn’t revealed in this teaser: his eyes. The filmmakers struggled with how best to depict Sonic’s eyes because often he’s only seen with one, and that wouldn’t translate well to the live-action movie.
“I don’t think SEGA was entirely happy with the eye decision, but these sorts of things you go, ‘It’s going to look weird if we don’t do this.’"
Well merciful fuck, we don't want Sonic to look weird, now do we? You know what would help keep Sonic from looking weird? Not giving him eyes that project out of his head so far you can somehow see them in his silhouette in the teaser! Or just not making him an insanity inducing abomination with naked man thighs!

No hell SEGA isn't happy with this, you are raping every aspect of their mascot down to his bones!

"But everything is a discussion, and that’s kind of the goal, which is to only change what’s necessary and stay true to the rest of it,” said Miller."
Does Miller say that before he prostrates before his lizard man master's huge green reptilian dong?

This cant could not be more meaningless and asinine if it came out of a machine. They did not make a single necessary change, they changed as much as possible for absolutely no reason.

“He’s not going to feel like a Pixar character would because I don’t think that’s the right aesthetic to make it feel like part of our world.”
Sonic would make 100000000000000000000000 times more sense as a Pixar character. Good grief. That comment has to be about the real motive here, they're creating naked blue lemur Sonic as some sort of middle finger to Pixar and their cutesy characters, like they've got some sort of grudge against the studio and want to show everyone what a real anthropomorphic hedgehog looks like in retaliation for all the attractively stylized CGI movies they've made.

"Post-production began about a month ago, so the special effects are still being finalized, but director Jeff Fowler -- the movie’s resident Sonic superfan and internal defender of staying true to the character"
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“The first thing you need to do is put limits on it. If you can do anything, nothing is special. For me, it’s always about keeping it grounded and keeping it realistic,” said Miller. "
Sure, you've violated everything else about the character, go ahead and nerf his speed too. Realistic talking hedgehogs need realistic super speed!

"Obviously the poster can only show so much. … That's a hint at what we're hoping to accomplish, but I think people are going to see things they've probably never seen before in trying to represent speed in this movie,” said Moritz. "
He's not wrong; we've never seen Sonic's naked ass cheeks quaking as he runs before.

"We've worked so closely with the people at SEGA who are kind of the gatekeepers of Sonic to make sure we're lockstep.”
Dear God I hope no one at SEGA actually okayed any of this. If there is any justice in the world they will stop this movie from ever seeing theaters. Please Iizuka, do something. Anything. Go make a Shadow the Hedgehog movie instead if it prevents this version of Sonic from appearing onscreen.

"We're trying to make something that's for today "

F O R T O D A Y

Lizards!

"With Sonic being thrown into the real world and out of his own, it's unclear what presence fan-favorites like Tails and Knuckles will have in the new film. "
UHHHHHHGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
I do NOT want to see these people turn Knuckles into a naked monkey thing. I don't want to see any of the cast get hit with that Hollywood garbage.

Imagine Amy in this art style.

Sfbgbjgkgjhhjvjknhjnjjj by bngj in hvj

This is the worst thing that has ever happened to Sonic. In an entire life time of messed up things, this is the most messed up.

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except it WON'T BE CHAO ISLAND ANYMORE
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2018 1:01 pm 
"Show me your power... Or I shall not obey."
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Rocky Road
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They're putting him in the real world so they can justify putting in

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actors

that was clear from the start, going off my earlier comment in the detective pikachu thread the nature of 3d animated game/cartoon characters has never been a smooth process because of how out of touch hollywood is with recognizing what the modern world thinks or wants. the demands and desires people want has always been rather reasonable to any fandom minus the sonic fandom, and the sonic fandom itself has gotten sick and tired of seeing sonic team fumble around with its own IP and mascot like a basketball player with oil on his hands. maybe they're trying to take this approach due to years of the sonic IP being a parody of itself? you have people working on sonic games severely detached from the kind of world the sonic games were trying to create and are now afraid to return to it out of fear ever since 2006. When in reality the only problem that ever happened wasn't that we didn't want to see the world of sonic, we wanted to not have another mess rushed for christmas but neither we nor the developers make this decision. It's never the case there.

the only place that manages to avoid tarnishing the sonic IP despite being around for over a decade now has been the smash bros series in how they've respected his character in it, chalk up the 10 years since 2008 that the sonic IP had from unleashed to the new racing game and you get the idea that whoever is in charge of this now has no idea what the identity of sonic is. no one except its fans, and we've been at this for so long the fans were actually hired to make a game already and made one that restored sonics good name, made him cool, got him respectful fanart, started a meme over people wanting a character they thought they saw in the games...and then forces brings everything back to the status quo like an episodic cartoon.

and 5 years ago with the sonic fan film which now manages to be more faithful than this adaptation already from the previews and POV from sonics own crotch, he wound up being slow there too. at this point it honestly feels like this franchise should have died back with at least sonic 2006 so that fan memory and nostalgia could have at least fermented for a great return. instead sonic seemingly has any identity anyone wants to give him. Given the plot of this movie it seems as the drive for heavier plots and meaningful story in a video game that has only ever become a relevant factor since '98 with MGS never really complimented games that focused on treating their games like games and not story telling mediums like the last of us or red dead redemption 2. it's not anything that could ever win awards no, but it still had an identity. maybe an adaptation of sonic adventure or any of the sonic games could have avoided this mess, since they had arguably a greater story.

to close this off, i don't expect better from hollywood anymore and no one ever should have. the detective pikachu movie still has weird looking pokemon alongside the ones that don't look disgusting, video game movies fail because they stop being video games and start needing to appeal to hollywood itself and now people who watch movies or know the source material, and trying to adapt video games that had simple or no story to them is hard because if you want to adapt it as a minimalist movie with quiet interactions and characterizations you would actually

HAVE TO PUT IN THE FUCKING EFFORT TO DO IT!!!


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2018 1:17 pm 
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Rocky Road
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To be honest, we can talk about the creators not trying, but in truth Hollywood is perfectly willing to shell out the man power and expertise to create ambitious movies- they're just using it in pursuit of something mind blowingly stupid.

Because they're lizard people.

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except it WON'T BE CHAO ISLAND ANYMORE
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2018 11:46 pm 
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I don't know if Sonic's design would have saved it. Ratchet and Clank was ostensibly everything gaming fans say they want video game movies to be, written by actual series writer, and it was still terrible. The concept of demoting some media to a less interactive form is tricky and is usually intended for pop culture, to reach hands into wallets the source did not or cannot (the successful attempts at this usually are supplementary to or expand upon the source); satisfying the original audience is more of the golden goose sought after, but not a priority.

That said, I wouldn't pay to watch a Sonic movie, because there is no real potential for Sonic in 2018, and it was goofy to pretend there was.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2018 12:09 am 
"Show me your power... Or I shall not obey."
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Rocky Road
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unless the next thing i hear are "sonic adventure game with chao and Christian Whitehead in charge" or "Christian Whitehead brought back for next 2d sonic game" i think it's about time to bury any hope i have left in this series and bash it over the head with the shovel to make sure it stays dead


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2018 7:45 am 
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I fully agree with this.
Trying to explain animal characters is like trying to explain how the toys are alive in Toy Story.

I just don't understand why we need to keep presenting these characters like they're aliens.
Also who is this movie for? a lot of people who don't even play the games or read the comics will have no context of the "world he came from".
and for those of us who are familiar with Sonic probably want to see his whole world presented as opposed to him just..."in the real world"
It's like the most boring idea for a cross-over cause there's no actual franchise involved you're just taking a character out of their world into nowhere.

What's with the idea that animal characters are so appealing we want to see real people commentate on their whacky appearance?
Thinking about the Pixar and "realism" thing more, I also think their obsession with once again trying to present Sonic like a "real creature" in the "real world" is silly. He's not supposed to look realistic, he's supposed to look cohesive which I don't think required this much of a change. I mean would keeping his shape relatively the same really have harmed the aesthetic that much?

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2018 6:00 am 
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Rocky Road
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Quote Dust :
I just don't understand why we need to keep presenting these characters like they're aliens.
Also who is this movie for? a lot of people who don't even play the games or read the comics will have no context of the "world he came from".
and for those of us who are familiar with Sonic probably want to see his whole world presented as opposed to him just..."in the real world"
It's like the most boring idea for a cross-over cause there's no actual franchise involved you're just taking a character out of their world into nowhere.
That is exactly how I feel and is put into words much more succinctly than what I could manage.

Like... there's no content to the premise of this movie. It's a character we've literally never seen before (because it sure isn't Sonic) placed in a random situation with cast of humans we've never heard of, with no real connection to any story element from the video games or any other version of the franchise.

If anyone wanted to watch something like that with Sonic actually IN it, that actually does something with the storyline of the games, they could just watch Sonic X.

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I WILL BE AN ADMINISTRATOR, RULING OVER CHAO ISLAND
except it WON'T BE CHAO ISLAND ANYMORE
IT'LL BE BANANA ISLAnD


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2018 5:48 am 
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When I first heard they were making a Sonic movie, my immediate fear was that they would go the "live-action and CGI characters" route. Sure enough, that seems to be where they're going with this. However, I wanted to stay at least a little optimistic. Upon seeing the poster for the first time, my reaction was a strange combination of (mostly) confusion and intrigue.
WHY DOES HE LOOK LIKE AN OLYMPIC RUNNER WEARING A CHEAP SONIC COSPLAY

There are multiple things about the design that aren't hitting the right notes with me (namely the shoes, lack of gloves and Sonic's build) and I feel that there were definitely ways to make it look more appealing and faithful to the original design, but that morbid curiosity in me wants to see where they go with it. I don't necessarily like how the producers are trying to make Sonic look "realistic," when there's nothing inherently realistic about a talking, anthropomorphic blue hedgehog. In fact, I think they took the concept of "anthropomorphic blue hedgehog" a bit too literally. I've seen many people compare this to the Detective Pikachu movie, but I feel that the advantage Detective Pikachu has over the Sonic movie is the fact that Pokémon were designed to loosely resemble real-world creatures or objects. Sonic doesn't have that advantage. Heck, Sonic's main inspirations were Felix the Cat and Mickey Mouse cartoons, and being as those characters weren't designed with realism in mind, making them look "realistic" while keeping their charm and appeal is something that's definitely easier said than done.

I'm not going to make any hard judgments as of yet (at least until a trailer drops, which probably won't be for a while), but based on what I've seen so far, I'm keeping my expectations low. If anything, I might go see it anyway just for laughs.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2018 7:44 am 
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Rocky Road
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I'm judging hard because I feel personally insulted by Miller and Moritz' statements in the IGN interview.

Any benefit of the doubt they might have had has been soaked in gasoline and set on fire.

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Quote NachoThePikachu :
I WILL BE AN ADMINISTRATOR, RULING OVER CHAO ISLAND
except it WON'T BE CHAO ISLAND ANYMORE
IT'LL BE BANANA ISLAnD


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